The boy and I were watching 60 minutes on the 20th of March– one of the stories focused on selective reduction (SR) and 3 womens’ experiences with this issue. For those not familiar with the subject matter selective reduction is where one or more foetuses is aborted during a multiple pregnancy. The foetuses are usually aborted in the first trimester by an injection of potassium chloride into the heart. I’d heard of this for medical reasons – pregnancies of triplets and up are pretty high risk, for the mother and the babies, so I knew in pregnancies such as these SR was often brought up by doctors. I wasn’t so familiar with doing this however for lifestyle reasons.
Now I consider myself Pro-Choice. However, both the boy and I found it quite disturbing to witness the actual needle go into the foetal heart and for it to stop moving. One of the women interviewed had fallen pregnant with triplets after receiving fertility treatment and for reasons including the desire to only have one child and to maintain her career/lifestyle she chose to have two of the foetuses aborted. I struggled with this while watching because if someone chooses to have fertility treatments or have multiple embryos implanted into their womb my initial reaction was that they should not then be aborting several of them. If you can’t handle the risk of two or three babies at once then don’t put that many embryos in. (Note: one of the women in the story had IUI which means you don’t have control over how many embryos get fertilised but it is a known risk of the treatment). Aborting healthy foetuses achieved through fertility treatments seems at odds. Being a person in a stable relationship who is approaching my childbearing years I also put myself in her shoes and the thought of aborting 2 healthy foetuses that the boy and I had created seemed like something I could not imagine doing. It’s easy to speculate though when I’m not actually the one in the position of having to make a choice.
On further reflection I have questions though – do I get to be pro-choice but put limitations on it? If I’m pro-choice do I have to support every choice? (Notwithstanding that obviously we do put limitations on how late a pregnancy can be terminated for anything other than medical reasons). I think the reason that I was initially against the mother who aborted two of her three foetuses for lifestyle reasons was because I figured that triplets generally have a pretty good chance of survival and having known people who had triplets, I saw it as tough but doable. If it was someone pregnant with 4 or more foetuses then I would not have been so quick to judge (although if it was through IVF I’d be judging the doctor’s decision for sure). In reality though having triplets is actually quite high risk. Plus I’m sure there are some women out there that know themselves and realise they would not be able to mentally cope with two or three babies at once. This brings me back to the IVF issue though – should you be implanting more than one embryo at all?
What if it was a third pregnancy and the couple already had two children. Having five children may mean a bigger house and increased finances are required which some parents are not in position to provide. Does the potential financial hardship and stress justify the choice?
Did I just find it disturbing because I actually saw a termination taking place on television and this coloured my opinion? Is SR really that different from any abortion that could take place for lifestyle reasons?
Splatters, what are your opinions on SR for lifestyle reasons and what questions does it bring up for you?
Great post! Some very thought provoking questions in there : ) I will need to think on this further, will come back later in the day.
Ooh, what an interesting question and I’m not sure I know what I think. I do know the reason that doctors implant more than one embryo is to give a better chance of actually getting pregnant. In some countries, there are limits on the number of embryos that may be implanted (in Australia it’s two) so the selective reduction issue probably doesn’t raise its head that much.
I don’t have kids. I’m not going to have kids. I don’t know how I’d feel in a situation where I was hoping for one child and was suddenly told I was going to have three. But surely, if you are going through fertility treatment, wouldn’t you prepare yourself for the possibility that you may end up with more than one child? Shouldn’t that be something you consider when you first start the treatment?
Like Dog, I am very pro-choice but this type of selective reduction for lifestyle choices bothers me too. How far away is it from being able to choose the gender of your baby? You know, just keep having abortions until you get the girl you want. Or choosing your child’s hair or eye colour? How far away is it from aborting embryos with Down Syndrome or cystic fibrosis? *Should* there be an option to abort a embryo with a disease or disability? The old Stephen Hawking argument comes to mind. How far away from eugenics is this? Selectively breeding a ‘better’ human?
I don’t know what’s right or wrong here.
I believe they already test for Down’s Syndrome in pregnant women of high risk factor and abortion is available if the test is positive. I remember it coming up when a friend was pregnant and that was over twenty years ago.
That, surely, is a lifestyle decision as well.
Not sure how I feel about that. I keep seeing both sides of the argument and also realising I can’t truly put myself in the woman’s shoes.
I see serious issues if we start selectively breeding a ‘better’ human though. Better by whose standards? If the government gets involved, in some countries at least, it will be A Brave New World bought to life. That was SF but it was scarier than most horror I have read – probably becasue it is actually possible.
Great post Dog. I’m off to work but will look back in later tonight. This is an issue I have been struggling with myself and it will be interesting to see what the Splatter’s think.
I am pretty sure you’re right Harls.
But that is different. You’re looking at high level care for all of that person’s life, as opposed to healthy kids that would one day be able to care for themselves (never knowing what is coming of course).
Yes, that’s the one I’m least sure about.
Yes, they do test for Downs Syndrome in a foetus, and while it’s not conclusive it does give a high or low risk result. If you receive a high risk result, there is a second, more invasive test (a huge needle is inserted to withdraw some fluid from the back of the baby’s neck). I imagine the results of that second test woul be even more informative. At that stage, yes, the parents and doctor may discuss abortion.
Mr Coaster and I privately discussed what we would do in that situation. It was hard. Very hard. Fortunately we were blessed with a good test result, and not needing to actually face it, which would have been even harder than just discussing the hypothetical.
On that note, it’s reasonably frequent that 2 embryos turn into 3 (or one embryo splits into two) as I understand.
This blog is making me late again, but I had to add my two cents worth.
The term ‘selective reduction’ really gets on my goat. It’s right up there with ‘collateral damage’. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the issue (and there will be many points of view on that, I’m sure) the term ‘selective reduction’ starts the process of decision from a dishonest basis designed to make it more palatable to all involved.
It’s a weasel term.
And it pisses me off.
It’s probably named to make people who don’t have a choice to do it, or so they’re not made to feel like criminals by anti-abortionists.
People don’t like to confront difficult health choices. It’s a way to blunt the blow – especially for women with fertility issues.
Don’t forget ‘Friendly fire’?
Which is totally sad.
Great post Dog. Thanks for sharing.
I too am pro-choice. But I really am not fond of the idea of late term abortions, because of the development of neural systems. If there is a threat to the mother going ahead with the pregnancy, I think what people decide in consultation with their doctor is their choice. There is still a decent risk going ahead with twins and triplets, who often are born early and require quite high level intervention. I also believe it is your choice if the child has a severe developmental condition.
That being said, lifestyle choices? Really? Most people want more than one child. And yes, twins seem to be a handful but it seems a lot of mothers can handle twins on their own (Belle may disagree with me here). Triplets, not so much. But you have committed to having a child. What if you have one child with delays or any other condition? How do you know you are making the choice of the correct sibling (I have heard of cases where one embryo is being aborted because one is very sick, and the wrong foetus being terminated).
Hard question.
I don’t disagree with you at all. I am certainly adept at handling twins on my own
Not always sure I do a good job but I always do the best I can. Yes twins are a handful and doing it on your own is tough but I think that is true for any parents (not just singletons like me lol). Handling one child can be tough and multiple siblings can be tough but on the flip side it can be amazingly awesome as well.
From what I’ve seen you are raising two intelligent, clever, respectful and social boys, so I would say you’re doing an excellent job
Awww thanks – on days when I am seriously doubting my parenting abilities positive reinforcement is always appreciated xx
Totally agree!!
I agree with you on this Smoph, on pretty much all points raised.
From what I hear, everyone is all for the rights of the mother, how they seem to trump all and sundry but I rarely hear about the rights of the child-to-be.
I’m not talking about voting rights, or their right to sue a parent for defamation, I’m talking about the basic right to feel safe at home, to go to sleep feeling loved, to live a life unhindered by any preventable illness/disorder. All of this is simple yet it’s never spoken about and certainly never focused upon because the rights of the mother outweigh those of the child-to-be.
IMO if parent’s cannot provide this then they should NOT be having a child, if they do it can only be said to be utterly selfish and, for lack of a better word, child-abuse.
that’ll do for my rant this morning. I need a coffee.
Not saying I don’t agree with you, but to play devil’s advocate for a minute… What if a couple has the capacity to provide all this for one child… and then they end up pregnant with twins or triplets (whether through IVF or naturally)? The added stress and financial burden means that they may no longer be able to provide basic human needs. Even love. Although the parents may love the triplets, the massive extra strain on them and their relationship may result in the children feeling unloved.
Of course, does this then mean I think they should be able to abort healthy babies to avoid this strain on themselves and their relationship and give the child/children that are born a better life? Jury is still out.
I know what you mean about the jury being out it’s a really tough one, and i’m sure in the past i’ve tabled a baby licence scenario, to delve into this a little further, there woudl need to be a counselling program, a pre-natal program and a financial counselling so that the family-to-be really would be as informed as possible.
I know that there are so many things that can only be experienced to be understood and from my experience (though having no kids of our own) the parent’s I do know, are amazing and perhaps it is through them knowing a little more than the basic person, perhaps it is that they are the people who should have kids rather than those who should be neutered
But Scoobs, I do think a pregnant woman has rights to life. Triplets would be unmanageable on your own – I base this on a family I met with naturally occurring triplets. They could never have the kids and be on their own, especially not at a young age and outside of the home.
But sometimes a pregnancy poses a very real physical or psychological risk to a mother. In that case, I see it as her right to choice.
I agree,
The rights of the child argument is assuming that they decide to go ahead, Kind of a secondary filtering (for lack of a better word)
Mrs P and I went through all these discussions (In one form or another), particularly when the Downs test was looming. We both agreed that whilst we are pro-choice, neither of us could actually do it unless it was a life-threatening situation. Our earliest scan was a little earlier than we thought and LML was only about 5-6 weeks along, but still the little heartbeat was going a million miles an hour and that only reinforced that I could never put a stop to that except in the most dire circumstances.
As for perhaps finding it disturbing only because you saw it on TV, that brings to mind the whole vegetarian thing. I kind of get, but kind of don’t get people who happily eat meat but ‘Don’t want to think about where it came from’. Since I have on numerous occasions prepared my meals from scratch (‘Scratch’ being running/swimming/flying around) I find it a bit difficult to separate the process from the end result. For the record LML already clucks at any chicken she eats when we tell her what it is. I’m interested to see what happens when she makes the connection.
I speak in a purely hypothetical voice. In matters of life or death, I don’t think you really know how you will react until you are actually staring down the barrell of the gun.
I am personally against abortion, but I am pro-choice. I take my personal position based on my own beliefs and values and I believe that everyone else should have the right to make their own decision based on their own beliefs and values.
The downside of personal choice, is it allows people the freedom to make bad choices, or at least choices for bad reasons.
While I confess to a level of discomfort on this particular topic, I feel I must apply the same pro-choice logic.
Should there be lines drawn? Where should they lay? Those are hard questions. While I would persoanlly prefer reasons to be medical, I find it difficult to judge someone for making a decision on lifestyle basis.
I think that ‘lifestyle basis’ makes me most uncomfortable because of the scope of what it might include. It does open a door to some pretty weak rationalizations.
completely agree with Beez
I remember as a young teenager watching an episode of a popular show where the female lead found out she was pregnant. She was early-mid thirties, worked as a doctor and was obviously fairly comfortable financially. She was in a relationship with the father, although the relationship was fairly new. She decided to have an abortion.
Previously I had been pro-choice all the way (though you could judge at that age I had very little understanding of the complicated concepts involved). I distinctly remember this episode because it made me realise that I wasn’t absolutely pro-choice. This woman decided to have an abortion because even though she wanted children eventually, it didn’t suit her lifestyle RIGHT NOW. Perhaps in another year or two. I didn’t like this concept.
As a got older, the concept of abortion got more complicated. I didn’t like the idea of it, but if I’d become pregnant at say, 17… Well, I’d certainly have considered it. It’s hard to say what I would have done.
Another argument that often goes around in my mind when you consider abortion is that the pregnancy should never have happened. If a couple uses protection, and the woman gets pregnant… well, technically if the protection had worked like it did every other time, that pregnancy should never have happened. So an abortion is simply correcting that. Or what about the morning after pill? Is that an abortion? Or is it no different to using a condom – just a little later…
And after all that you get to the matter at hand that is selective reduction. I don’t like the concept. I don’t think many people would be comfortable with it. But can we ever really put a blanket opinion over people’s individual circumstances? What would the financial and mental implications be of a woman having three babies instead of one? How would that effect the children’s lives?
But then, at least they’d have lives…
I really don’t know where I stand with this one. About the only thing I can say with certainty is that if going through IVF, I don’t think people should implant more eggs than they would be willing to give birth to if they all turned out to be healthy feotuses. SR is a very complex concept. The least people can do is try to prevent the potential need of it by making responsible decisions at an earlier stage.
Of course, you could always make the argument that if you’re not going to implant the embryo then it was never going to get a chance at life anyway… so why couldn’t you implant 3 and choose one? Aren’t you already making a choice when you decide to implant only one?
Uuuugh so complicated!
A few people have been saying “only implant as many as you’re willing to birth” but like SR it is not that simple. IVF is an expensive and somewhat risky venture and the success rate is not all that high. Multiple fertilised eggs are implanted so that the mother/parents don’t need to go through the process as often, and spend as much money. I’m not saying this makes SR right (or wrong) or that it makes implanting 3 or 4 fertilised eggs at once right or wrong, just pointing out that there are many reasons, valid reasons, why it is done.
Yes exactly. While my first instinct is to implant less fetilised eggs, I question the difference between making the ‘selection’ at the egg stage versus the viable embryo stage. You are still choosing. You still only intended to have one child. You *could* make the argument that choosing at that earlier stage means you are depriving those eggs of the chance to be viable in the first place, and thus depriving them of a chance at life. If you implant one egg and it fails to take, you’ve also wasted the other fertilised eggs.
Ultimately this comes back to the wider question of when is a baby a baby? Legally it’s 20 weeks. In our minds… well, everyone has a different theory.
And forgive me if I’ve used embryo/egg or any other terms interchangably. I have only a general understanding of the IVF process.
It’s also worth mentioning that implantation is only the last stage – for embryos that have been frozen, there’s a significant percentage chance that they don’t survive the thawing process (You can’t just stick ‘em in the microwave and press Defrost!) And you won’t know whether they’ve survived until about an hour before the implantation procedure.
So, to get a reasonable chance of success at IVF, you need to thaw multiple embryos to ensure that at least one is viable – so if you only intend to implant one, do you discard a potentially viable embryo?
Pretty much no couple who are going through IVF will do that.
I understand all the IVF procedures but I guess my question is whether by implanting more than one you should accept the possible consequences of a multiple birth that may follow or not? A very non black and white issue!
In Australia, nowadays, you have to sign a document saying that you understand it’s a risk and you accept it. (It’s more to stop you suing the IVF clinic…)
From what I understand it’s a numbers game from start to finish. You play the odds and hope for the best.
Obligatory health warning: Later, and providing zero protection against STDs.
Dog, congratulations on a most excellent post today.
Thanks Loller! Such an interesting issue, raises so many questions and not many answers.
do I get to be pro-choice but put limitations on it?
You get to be anything you want. Rarely are things black or white.
Like The Trolley Problem in which a bystander can take action which will kill one person, or take no action which will kill five. There are a million shades of grey that can be argued from all sides of an issue.
You should choose a moral position where you feel comfortable and adjust it as you see fit. If there’s a price to pay, in this life or the next, pay it.
As to my views on the matter… I’ve got that pesky extra chromosome, so I can hardly say what I would do. But I believe a new life begins at the first cell division after sperm meets egg.
What others choose to do with that life is on their ledger, not mine. It’s not my place to dictate how someone else lives. Nor is it my place to judge their actions based on my moral compass.
I think men can comment on issues of abortion and selective reduction and say what they think they would do? Ultimately it might be a woman’s choice but I like to think that the male partner (if there is a partner involved) would be involved in the decision making, particularly in SR and if they have gone through IVF together.
I don’t think my post was judging anyone based on my moral compass though, I acknowledged that it is a very non black and white issue. I’m just raising some food for thought – people did say they wanted interesting discussions here.
Don’t get me wrong. It is an interesting topic, and a very thought provoking one. I wasn’t raising any issues with your post or with you, just stating where my moral compass points.
A partner should definitely have input, but as a male with no uterus, no desire to have children, and not being in that situation, I still cannot say what I would do or ask my partner to do.
I agree Dog- the male should have an input (aside from the initial 8 mins Bwahahah), but should ultimately support the women’s decision.
What happens in the other seven and a half minutes?
Foreplay
Oh, you mean the begging?
Hey now!
Isn’t it human nature to judge based on our own moral compass?
In the strictest sense, we judge everything and everyone. We judge whether a person can be trusted with a secret, or with our family, our money, or our lives. We judge whether they are fit to be our friends.
But I don’t judge people on whether they choose the same morals as I do. If I did, I would only have friends who are exactly like me.
That’s not to say I will associate with criminals or people who do drugs. But that’s based on my personal safety and freedom. They could be fun folks to hang out with, but when your buddy has a kilogram of coke in his backpack, you’re going down too. I’d judge him on his lack of care and concern for me and my safety rather than the fact that he’s a drug dealer.
How far does this extend though? Surely a murderer would be judged on their decision to commit murder rather than just concern that if you hung out with them you might be next in line?
I know what you mean, I was kinda playing the devils advocado.
Thank you for having the courage to say what you think.
Al and I had conversations early in the piece. I always do have that conversation with a new partner. While I appreciate boys don’t take on the physical condition, they have a right to be heard as the embryo is part of them too.
He refrained to say much of what he thought, I know out of respect to it being my final decision, but it is important to know what the other thinks too.
Respect is one of the reasons – another is that I’ve already had to face a decision like this.
What an excellent post Dog! Unfortunately I’m at work so I can’t post properly now but I will be back later. .
On a slight side note though….I move in with motorbike man on thursday!! So excited
*takes a biiiig deep breath*
Right. I’ve been at all ends of the spectrum, I guess. I’ve changed my opinions on things since I was young. My eldest was my 5th pregnancy after a spate of miscarriages. At the time, I was quite against abortion for the sheer fact that I had had such trouble maintaining a pregnancy. Cue a few years later and I had an unplanned pregnancy to a man I very much loved and saw a future with, but I met him whilst overseas and the timing was a mess on top of having my elder daughter’s father fight me for custody. Difficult decision but one I had to make. I was not prepared to risk losing custody of my eldest child, and definitely not in a stable enough relationship, or able to afford to raise a baby on my own until immigration got its stuff in a pile.
Cue a few more years forward and I volunteered as an egg donor to assist friends of mine who had infertility issues. She was guaranteed a donor if they provided one, and my eggs were given to an anonymous couple who also provided a donor. This wasn’t a matter of ‘balancing the karma chequebook’, it was just a case of at the time I wasn’t in a relationship and wanted to help others experience the joy I was fortunate enough to behold.
Cue a few more years later, I had remarried, had another child and wanted a third. By this stage I was in my mid thirties, which meant my risks increased and I had to undergo amniocentesis to check for abnormalities etc. Hubby and I at the time considered the options and decided that we would not proceed with the pregnancy is there were significant issues present. Judge me or don’t, but I know I would struggle with a child with special needs and felt at that time it wasnt fair to the children I already had. As it turns out, my husband wasn’t someone I could lean on just within day to day things so I could barely imagine trying to raise three children on my own, let alone one with special needs. Hindsight, hey.
So – I guess my spin is – it is the decision for each individual to make. Whilst I personally find it distasteful to select gender, I know I made choices based upon my own levels of practicality, comfort and conscience. I think the idea of number selection is also a bit iffy personally, because the number of children anyone can produce naturally is so difficult to pre-determine. Would I have different views if it wasn’t a mandatory thing to have amnio once pregnant over 35? Quite possibly.
I do however think that the demonstration of the injection into the foetus was in the poorest of taste and unneccessary. You don’t see the moment of death on news bulletins.
I completely agree Haven!
Thank you for sharing your journey, I for one don’t judge you.
Yes, thanks for sharing your story. It is brave thing to do. I think both choices show some bravery and are full of hard decisions.
*also takes a biiig breath
I have been debating all day whether to add my story as well. While it is not strictly related to selective reduction it may provide some insight. This is something that I have told very few people so thanks Maven for giving me the courage to put this out there.
As some of you know I was only 21 when I had twins, they were ten weeks premmie and it was a very stressful time. Even with twins I was barely showing by the time I was 5 months pregnant (I did make up for this in the intervening two months lol). I decided to use depo provera (injection) as a contraceptive as I was on the pill when I unexpectedly fell pregnant with the boys. When the boys were almost a year old I found out I was pregnant again and I was actually a few months along. I was booked in for a scan almost immediately and they found some serious developmental issues with this baby. The *immediate* assumption was that I would have a termination. I fought hard against this assumption and had a very emotional week of scans and other examinations but ultimately the prognosis was this baby would be severely disabled and would in all likelihood have a very short life span. I was very young, had already had a multiple birth, was in a very bad relationship that was disintegrating and had two babies that I was already mostly bringing up on my own. Ultimately I made the decision to have an abortion but it was incredibly difficult. A number of factors came into play including the effect it would have on the two babies I had already had and the pain, suffering, quality of life (or lack of) for this new baby. I made the best decision I could at the time and there are bound to be people that think I made the wrong one but …
In terms of this topic, I struggled so hard to make this decision with genuine medical issues involved and I guess lifestyle issues as well. I have no wish to judge anyone else and I genuinely don’t know what I would do if faced with another similar situation but I do find it hard to reconcile lifestyle being the primary driver in making such a decision.
I thank you both for your courage and I think what both your stories highlight is that the decision is never made lightly (despite how some try to demonise the people who make it) but that ultimately having the ability to decide your own fate is the right thing to be enshrined in law.
Hugs xoxox
Hugs Bell,
Thank you for sharing your story, I think it helps to have a human perspective on these terribly gray issues.
as always I am honored to know such fantastic people.
Thanks lovely
*hugs you*. We do what we have to. x
Being a single mum is so hard and no one gives credit where it’s due. You made some difficult choices at a very hard time in your life by the sounds of it, and I am sure it contributed to the beautiful person you are today. x
Hugs to you too
I think being an egg donor was a wonderfully kind and amazingly generous thing to do xx
Firstly thanks Dog for a great post, it seems fitting today.
As you all know I have PCOS, I’m almost certainly facing IVF in my future. I have been doing a bit of research lately in the way of reading blogs. Somehow reading it from other woman’s perspective makes it less scary for me. I strongly suggest you go to the following blog and read her journey through IVF http://www.alittlepregnant.com/alittlepregnant/archives.html
I am pro choice.
Knowing what I know about the IVF process I wouldn’t be against implanting multiple embryos, and if that ended in a multiple pregnancy for me (which is often a very very low chance) then I think I would need to think very hard about the SR process. It would depend on a number of factors, where I was living and If I had family around me to help me out in the early days, If I had the money to afford to stay home full time for up to 5 years and what my partner thought about it.
Once I saw the heartbeats I don’t think I could do it.
IMHO – If I decide to be pro-choice, I give up the right to judge others for their own personal choices. It might not be my choice, but it’s theirs and they have a right to make it.
I also have PCOS Jess. It’s something that I haven’t yet broached with my wonderful man, not the specifics. I was blessed when I had my son as I only required fertility treatment, not IVF as I was only 21 at the time and my body behaved lol. My doctor assured me last year though that for any future kidlets it will be in all likelihood IVF, and once I reach 35 I can pretty much forget the idea. As 35 is getting closer, specially with the time involved to try and then get pregnant etc my biological clock is literally ticking.
There has always been for me the possiblity of a multiple pregnancy, that is just one of the risks of IVF, but with a supportive husband I would have no concerns about proceeding. It would be a given as far as I’m concerned. Hmm guess I just answered the question…I am not in favour of SR for anything other than medical reasons.
Ahh so you will fully understand when I say I am parked up on the couch having suffered a cyst rupture yesterday.
So happy you got your little man!
I’m 25 already, and we are looking at starting a family around the time I’m 30. I would like to start earlier, but we just bought a house and it will be a much more stable household in a few years time.
Ouch – another one?
Hope you feel better soon, Jess
Life happens so you never know!
Also, even if it means you’re unwell, glad to see you today. x
Thanks Smoph and Al,
I’m sure I will be ok again soon. TLG is taking great care of me
Alright- a light post for Tuesday
Nice post, and I can understand where you are coming from. I am prochoice- but am fortunate enough to have never been in the position where a partner has needed to make that choice.
Also nice responses people!
I think that ultimately is has to be a personal choice. I probably couldn’t do what the women in the example did and would have a hard time supporting a partner who chose that course of action (so they could keep their career). But then I am not them so who am I to judge? For the record I don’t see the difference between a ‘naturally’ conceived foetus being aborted and a ‘medically’ conceived foetus being aborted. They are the same.
This is why it should be left to the individual, and politicians and church groups and any other groups should keep out of it.
Keep on rockin
Completely agree!
It’s a private decision and shouldn’t be used to sensationalize what is a very difficult time for a family.
Sorry Jess. Fat fingers!
Perfectly ok lovely
A rather thought provoking piece we have here!
Like most of you, I am pro-choice. I always thought that if I got pregnant when I was young (we’re talking teens, early 20′s here), I’d end up having an abortion, due to not wanting to be a mum at that age. That sort of changed when I was about 20 – was doing another TAFE course that I ended up not completing and at the time a classmate stood up in front of one of my classes to give a talk about abortion & why it was wrong etc. (I think she did come from a religious background of some sort.) She also showed us photos of (wait for it) dead foetuses….had to admit it made me think twice about the whole process. Still, it didn’t make me change my belief that if this is what other women want and they are comfortable going through it, then who am I to stop them or judge.
As for SR, I’m iffy, as it opens up a whole new can of worms, just like gender selection etc. Reading that bit about the mother aborting 2 of her foetuses for “lifestyle reasons” made me kind of upset/angry, given that there are so many women/couples out there desperate to have a child and who can’t have one for whatever reason and who would give anything to have one. Yet at the same time, I shouldn’t judge her since raising one child is hard enough in this world, even with all the support of a partner/family and finances etc behind you….but surely she must have known that undergoing fertility treatment could result in a multiple pregnancy? Hell, it can happen even with a “normal” pregnancy too! I also think the partner in this situation (and any situation involving abortion for that matter) should be able to have his say and feel as though his say is important, but I guess in the end it does come down to the mother since she is the one carrying.
Such a complex issue with so many shades of grey and it’s not something that should be taken lightly either.
I am definitely with you Seashells. In my early 20s, there would be no way. I even had moment or two that I was pregnant at around that age (even with protecting myself, there was a slim chance). One time I panicked and knew I couldn’t possibly keep it. It was a false alarm but I realised even though I thought I wouldn’t make that decision, I already had.
But what changed my mind in recent years are the most beautiful babies my friends have had, none of them planned or terribly convenient. But they are so beautiful and I like the world with them in it.
I can’t have children, not even through IVF, that makes it very difficult for me have an opinion that isn’t tempered by the single greatest source of sorrow in my own life.
I am pro choice though and I have chosen to continue in friendships with people who made choices about this subject that I cannot and probably will not ever understand. That was hard but it taught me a lot about how friendship really works and how complications can sometimes test and sometimes strengthen a bond.
I can’t ever see me choosing to abort any child living inside of me but I know that that answer has not been tested by reality and nor is it likely to be. My response is also a result of my life experiences, they contribute to the bias that makes me say that.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
Huggles Bec!
So many hugs to you.
I think that’s most of the point. It would never be your choice, but understanding that others make different ones to yours is one of the reasons we all know what a huge heart you have. xo
xxx
I’d really like to thank Dog for writing this post and everyone for their comments and insights today. For me, it’s fantastic to see a serious post about serious issues get a large number of comments, something which seems to have been missing on this blog lately.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the light-hearted posts as much as anyone else but the reason I first joined Splat was because it seemed to be made up of intelligent, interesting people who were interested in putting the time and effort in to discussing serious, possibly divisive, issues in a sane, respectful and polite manner.
So thanks again everyone.
An incredibly thought provoking post and I have enjoyed reading all the responses and very personal views. I am pro-choice but I have a great deal of difficulty trying to express my feelings on this issue and the whole abortion thing.
What I can say is that I dislike the idea of people having babies they cannot afford (on purpose) or in order to get some sort of child endowment. (Or trap a partner – they exist, I know one.)
Equally, those who choose the type of child they have. There are doctors in this country who enable sex selection. I personally know a person who aborted (“lost”) two female babies until the boy arrived. I have no idea how they do it and I know it is illegal but she did it and it makes me sick to even contemplate. All I know is it was the last child she would carry to term at her age and they did all sorts of tests.
I don’t have any children and the rest is just too difficult for me to write down.
Been MIA lately but I thought I would comment, despite the fact that no-one will see this.
All the best.
Welcome back : ) It is an interesting an important topic that raises all sorts of questions
I saw it.
Totally agree.
Wow, what an interesting post. Thanks, Dog and thanks to those who posted some very personal stories to share their views. Reminds me what a wonderful bunch of people you all are. Like many of you I am pro-choice but am grateful I have not had consider what I would do beyond hypotheticals. SR for anything beyond medical reasons doesn’t sit well with me but who am I to judge what another person can or cannot cope with. It’s unlikely I’ll ever have to face that decision myself as personally I doubt I would go down the IVF path if I find I cannot have children naturally. Definitely not judging those who do, just don’t think it’s for me (who knows if that changes in a few years though!)